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This content is adapted from the Founders Podcast interview with Jason Fried of 37signals. Listen to on YouTube. Jason has run 37signals profitably for 27 years with a team of 62 people, building products like Basecamp and HEY. This is a story about “enough.”
1. Build Products for Yourself
When Jason was 15, he built a music collection database in FileMaker Pro—because he kept lending out his tapes and never getting them back. He attached a text file to the software: “If you like this, send me $20.” Then he put it on AOL.
One day he received an airmail letter from Germany. Inside was a printed invoice and a crisp $20 bill.
“That was the moment it all clicked for me — make stuff for yourself. There’s probably other people out there like you who want what you want.”
Core logic: You are the user, you are the audience. There are enough people in the world with similar taste. You don’t need the whole world to like what you make—just “enough” people.
2. Low Costs, Small Company, Enough Customers
If your costs are high and your company is big, you have to find lots of people just like you. But if your costs are low and your company is small—16-year-old Jason could make $20,000 a year from software alone—you only need a few thousand customers.
“Keep your cost low, keep your company as small as you possibly can and make great stuff and then you don’t have to find as many people just like you.”
The people you do find will genuinely love what you make. That’s enough.
3. Your Only Competition Is Your Costs
The essence of business: make more than you spend. You can’t control what your competitors do. What you can control are your own costs and pricing.
“What I can control is how much it costs me to run my business, how much I sell my product for. As long as I make more than I spend, I get to stay in business. And isn’t that what this is all about?”
From Sam Walton to Andrew Carnegie to early Bill Gates—all the greatest entrepreneurs in history were obsessed with controlling costs. Microsoft’s first 30 employees: Bill Gates, his secretary, and 28 programmers. No excess fat.
4. How 37signals Stays Lean
62 people. No middle management. The executive team is just two people: Jason and David Heinemeier Hansson.
They tried expanding to 83 people, adding engineering managers and a COO. They discovered that with more layers, information got distorted like a game of telephone. The COO didn’t have enough to do, wasting people’s professional lives. They cut those positions within a year.
Product teams are usually just two people: a programmer and a designer. This forces them not to build things that two people can’t build.
Only one question to decide whether to keep someone:
“Knowing what I know now, would I hire them again?”
That question answers everything about performance, attitude, and cultural fit.
5. Rewriting Basecamp & Fighting Software Bloat
They completely rewrite Basecamp every five or six years. 1 to 2 was a full rewrite, 2 to 3 was too. This is an opportunity to re-examine the fundamental assumptions of the product.
The physical world has feedback—if a cup is too hot, you know there’s a design problem. Software doesn’t. Software can just bloat forever, nothing pushes back.
“Software slides downhill. It gets better for a while then slides downhill.”
Jason’s goal: Each new version is fundamentally simpler in experience than the last. Maybe more features, but simpler experience.
Why is this interesting? Because it’s hard. Because you’re fighting against nature. Because it forces more creative solutions.
“My favorite thing in life is to have an insight.”
6. Why “Enough” Beats Growth
Jason uses a rocket metaphor: You have to break free of gravity first, but once you’re in orbit, you should maintain. Not keep pushing higher forever—just stable operation within a comfortable range.
“I’m like, so what if you’re massive and you’re twice as massive? So what? Why?”
They’re definitely “leaving money on the table.” No pricing optimization, no A/B testing. He’s certain there’s some formula that would drive more growth. His answer:
“So what? I’m very comfortable with where we are. I don’t want to fuck that up.”
There’s a sandwich shop in Chicago called Vinny’s. They close when they run out of bread, usually around 2:30 PM. No hours posted on the door. Jason finds this “poetic and beautiful.”
“Where do you stop? You could stay open till 6:30. I mean 7 probably. We could do 7:30… You could see how this doesn’t end.”
7. Product People vs. Business Shells
Jason’s “envelope and letter” metaphor: Business is the envelope, product is the letter. He’s a letter writer, not an envelope maker.
“I don’t just want to build shells that get filled and then I sell it and build another shell.”
Too many people are “playing startup”—coming up with names, making logos, raising money, talking valuations, with nothing substantial inside. Turning the company into a financial instrument repels Jason.
Envelopes should be thin. The thicker the business body, the more inertia, the further from customers and product. 37signals is a very thin business body wrapped around a thick product.
8. The “So What?” Mindset
This is Jason’s catchphrase. People say he might be a terrible CEO, that someone could come in and double the company size. His answer:
“So what? I don’t care.”
He doesn’t even like the title CEO. “Chief executive officer of what?” Yesterday he replied to 200 customer emails. People say that’s not what a CEO should be doing. He thinks that’s exactly what a CEO should be doing.
He doesn’t pursue numerical optimization. Optimizing the product to make it better? Interesting. Squeezing out an extra $100k? Boring.
“Beyond not fun. Boring.”
9. Staying Close to Customers
There’s a grocery store in Chicago called Olivia’s where the owner knows every customer who walks in. Jason envies that but can’t do it—he has hundreds of thousands of users.
His alternative: The first thing you see after signing up for Basecamp is a personal letter from Jason with his email address. No AI, no assistant, no layers. Write directly to him.
“I want to get as close as possible to the people who use the things that we make.”
It’s not just about making customers happy. He wants to understand their language, how they describe the product, who they are. These things seep into him so he can feel what it’s like for users to experience the product.
UPS founder Jim Casey’s practice: Have drivers pull over every time they see a brown truck, and he’d chat personally with frontline employees. Because executives just kiss ass.
10. The Reward for Good Work Is More Work
Someone asked Jason: If you could make the money of 27 years in 15 years, which would you choose?
“I would take the 27. Because the money is a side effect of all of this.”
Patrick Collison said: “The reward for good work is more work.” Jason deeply agrees. 27 years is more interesting than 15 because he loves the work itself.
11. Six-Week Horizons & Compounding Decisions
37signals looks ahead at most six weeks. Most projects are much shorter than six weeks. Like a squirrel crossing a meadow—knows the general direction, runs a bit, stops to look, runs some more.
“I’ve always been mystified by people who think they can figure out the next three years today, but they’re afraid of figuring out tomorrow tomorrow.”
Someone asks “What does success look like in five years?” Jason’s answer: I don’t know, I don’t care.
David Senra’s version: A good life is a string of good days. Lay one brick each day, let the scoreboard speak for itself.
12. Anti-Fragile Business With Tiny Units
A day is a good small unit. A simple decision is a good small unit. Mess one up? It’s gone in 24 hours.
“Make things small, tiny little units that you can throw them away if it doesn’t matter.”
Big decisions brewing for eight months, catastrophic consequences if messed up. Small decisions keep accumulating, doesn’t matter if a few are wrong.
Same with pricing: Basecamp tops out at $299/month regardless of how many users you have. No whale customers. Imagine the dots on a TV snow screen—each customer equal size. Randomly lose 10, 100, business keeps running.
“You don’t want customers that you cannot afford to lose.”
13. Galápagos Product Design
Jason rarely looks at competitors. Not out of arrogance, but by choice.
“When you’re paying so much attention to what everyone else is doing, you tend to just think that’s the way it has to be done.”
His sources of inspiration: Concept 2 rowing machine (under $1000, black & white LCD screen, D-battery powered, perfect product), watches, architecture, furniture, nature. Not other software.
“I’d rather look at the sun than a competitor’s product.”
Result: Basecamp and HEY don’t look like any competitors. Some people hate it. That’s fine. Enough people love it.
14. Radical Authenticity Over Marketing Tricks
Jason’s product demos: long, unedited, he makes mistakes, doesn’t restart. Just like sitting next to you showing you something.
“Here we are. Here’s what we do. Here’s what our product does. That’s the best we can do and that’s the best I want to do.”
He tells a story: Met an elderly Navajo rug collector in a gallery in small-town Wisconsin. The rugs had “mistakes”—imperfect geometric patterns, offset stitches. The old man said Navajo don’t see these as mistakes, but as marks of time. If you trip on a mountain trail, you don’t go back to the start and rewalk it.
“Mistakes are a concept we put on ourselves when we do something that wasn’t what we intended. Why does that have so much weight?”
Landing page is a letter. Product launch videos unedited. If he can’t pronounce French, he can’t pronounce French. No pretense.
15. Rick Rubin & Intuition-Driven Building
Jason’s feeling reading Rick Rubin’s The Creative Act: “Did I write this book?”
What the two share: The world is full of things you can’t explain rationally—trust your intuition, don’t have to know all the “whys.”
What Jimmy Iovine said the first time he heard a song Rick Rubin produced:
“I wish I could still make something that simple.”
Rick was still new then, made something purely simple. More experience,反而 harder to keep simple. That’s the essential challenge of fighting complexity.
16. Lightning in a Bottle & Knowing When to Stop
Jason is certain he couldn’t remake Basecamp. Bob Dylan said in an interview: “I used to be able to write music like that. I don’t know how I did that. I know I couldn’t do it again, but I can do other things now.”
Jason realized in a mushroom experience: You can’t have the same experience twice. Listening to the same song the second time, nothing happens. He laughed out loud.
“You cannot have the same experience twice. You don’t deserve the same experience twice.”
The founder of Trader Joe’s sold the company and lived decades, admitting in his final words: He regretted selling it. He died the week the book came out.
Jerry Seinfeld’s concept: dosage matters. 45-minute standup you think is brilliant, 1 hour 15 minutes you think is just okay. Know when to stop.
17. Defining Success: Pride in the Work
Steve Jobs’ definition: “Did I make something I’m proud of?”
Rick Rubin’s version: “If it could have been better, I would have kept working on it. If it could be better, it’s not done. I’ve done everything I can to make it the best it can be. I can’t do more than that. So there’s nothing to be critical of.”
Jason’s version: “Would I want to do this again the next day?”
“A target shouldn’t make me do better work. I should do better work because of the pride I take in the work that I do.”
They don’t set revenue targets, sales targets, user targets. Do the best work, numbers are a side effect.
18. Independence Through Profitability
Independence = profitability = nobody can tell you what to do.
“We actually feel obligated to do things nobody would allow us to do. That’s like the exciting stuff for us — stuff we’re not supposed to be doing.”
No external funding. Everyone wants to give them money, they don’t take it. Money saved is money you keep—like saving about $10 million leaving AWS.
37signals is an LLC. Profits split with members at year end. 10% of profits split with employees by tenure—not by rank, salary, or title, but by how long you’ve been there. Capped at 10 years. 20 people got six-figure bonuses in 2024. Real money, not options.
Funding cuts off almost all options. You think you’re expanding possibilities, actually only one path left: get big. Most people blow right through what would have been a good business and is now not good enough for someone else.
“Most people blow right through what would have been a good business and is now not good enough for someone else.”
19. When Tech Adds Friction Instead of Value
Jason rented a new house for his parents. Full smart home. Dishwasher requires downloading an app to register first use. Thermostat confusing whether it shows current temperature or target temperature. Light switches need someone to explain. TV doesn’t “turn on” but “starts up,” menu appears after 12 seconds.
“I call this the great regression.”
Can’t go back—before you turned on the TV and it was the last channel you watched. Perfect switch: on, off. Lost technology.
“The best interface ever was the switch. On, off. Beautiful.”
The people making these products definitely don’t use them themselves.
20. Ruthless Editing & What Never Changes
Rick Rubin has artists pick 5 songs from 30 that “absolutely can’t live without.” First have a perfect 5-song album. Before adding a 6th, ask: Does it make the album better?
1963 Rolex Daytona. Jason thinks the first version is best—not because it’s old, but because it’s pure. That’s the purest form of the idea.
“The purest form of the idea… Everything else from there has been layered on because they need to sell more.”
Bezos’ advice: Focus on what doesn’t change in your business. Nobody will say in 10 years “I wish Amazon delivered slower” or “I wish customer service was worse.”
21. Longevity as the Moat
37signals did a podcast called The Distance, specifically about businesses that have survived over 25 years. Most are small family businesses, but surviving that long isn’t luck.
“If it’s been around that long, it’s not a fluke.”
Jason compares his company to an oak tree: grows slow, but can withstand storms, long life. Compare to a cottonwood: grows fast, makes noise, cotton flies everywhere, dies in 75 years.
“People ask, how do you compete? Well, we just stay around longer than everybody else.”
David Senra’s maxim: “You just stay in the game long enough to get lucky.” Coca-Cola didn’t invent the refrigerator, but refrigerators vastly expanded their market.
Charlie Munger’s standard: Time is the only reliable filter—for business, for ideas, for people.
22. Building by Intuition
Jason doesn’t look at spreadsheets for product decisions. No focus groups. Occasional A/B testing “for fun,” not because it matters.
“I’ve never seen a spreadsheet that’s ever made me do anything.”
How to hone intuition? Make decisions. Make more decisions. Not “practice intuition,” but keep doing things, like polishing a stone, eventually you get a smooth sphere that feels right in your hand.
“When you make a decision, you’re like, this feels like the right decision. I’m not afraid of this decision. I’m excited about this decision. It could go wrong and I’d be okay with that too.”
Intuition needs independence to function. If your intuition always gets vetoed by others, you’ll never use it. Which circles back to that core: independent, profitable, small team, build your own stuff.